Friday, 9 May 2014

Conversations With Leftists (9)

"What is the profane basis of Judaism? Practical need, self-interest. 
What is the world cult of the Jews? Huckstering. 
What is his worldly god? Money.... 
It is from its own entrails that civil society ceaselessly engenders the Jew." - Karl Marx

An International/National Socialist Account of Israel

Ah, Paul. Another Zionist defender of Israel.” - Thomas Edwards

If I'm a Zionist, then by definition I'm a “defender of Israel”.

Do you have such a strong interest in all the other states which were “artificially created” (as you put it) - or just Israel? After all, Western and Middle-Eastern Muslims are always saying that all contemporary Middle-Eastern states were created by the “British Empire”. How much time do you spend on those crimes? (In fact, every state has been artificially created.)

“It was a nationalistic takeover of land that was populated with Palestinians. Israel is seized land and therefore should be unsupported, unlike what happens now.”

There was no Palestinian people. Most people in that area saw themselves as either Jordanians or southern Syrians. (Palestinians, and then not all of them, didn't begin to see themselves as a people until after 1967.) Palestine was also sparsely populated relative to the population today. In fact the population increased due to Jewish investment and know-how, specifically Jewish farming techniques such as systematic irrigation (although Ilan Pappe and Chomsky probably have a different version of events).

“The aim is for the West to act as Israel's army and maintain instability and collapse every nation surrounding Israel until they're safe; at which point I imagine our economy will have collapsed.”

Eh? That hasn't happened! In over sixty years - that hasn't happened. Not only has the size of Israel not increased, it shrunk after 1948 and increased in 1967. And then decreased again. So I simply don't understand the rhetoric. In addition, Israel completely left Gaza in 2006. It is having problems sustaining its borders at present.

You really believe that “our economy will collapse” because of our support of Israel or does that statement just sound good to you?

“Your analogy of being against contemporary Germany for WWII is absurd; it's more like being against contemporary Germany for funding the EU.”
Written by a self-described "communist".

My analogy is “absurd”. Why? I explained it. National Socialists (Nazis), for example, say that we should be utterly against Israel because of the King David Hotel bombing. International Socialists (Leftists) say we should be utterly against Israel because of the Nakba, 1967 and, as you said, the Balfour Declaration. So, and I repeat, this is equivalent to saying we should be against contemporary Germany because the Germans killed hundreds of thousands of British, American and Commonwealth soldiers; as well as carried out the Blitz on British cities. We should also be against Russia and China because of past conflicts. But no one argues in that way – except in the case of Israel.

“Speaking of leftist analysis; you call me a Nazi commentator in the first paragraph. Nice ad hominem.”

An ad hominem argument is one that doesn't use argumentation. I explained why your analysis was Leftist/Marxist. I didn't just call you a “Leftist”. Do you want me to repeat what I said?

That whole repertoire of terms - such as “Israeli racism”, “apartheid”,
“ethnic cleansing”, etc. - come from very particular Marxist/Leftist writers. They wouldn't exist without these people. More specifically, they all depend on a Marxist analysis of capitalism within a non-capitalist environment – Israel. Capitalism and the nation state, by their very nature (according to Leftists), produce racism – hence Israel and its “apartheid” and “ethnic cleaning”. Take away the Marxist analysis/theory – and you have nothing.

Written by a self-described "communist".

Fusing National Socialists and International Socialists in relation to Israel is not at all self-contradictory: contemporary Nazis have
almost exactly the same position on Israel and Zionism as the SWP and all Trotskyists/communists: even down to the jargon (“apartheid”, “ethnic cleaning”, etc.).

“You don't need to tell me my wording or analysis is leftist; tell me why I'm wrong to ask such a question.”

Again, I didn't just say it was “Leftist”. It's interesting, surely, that a person who hints that he'd support [a patriotic group] if it were not supportive of Israel, uses a Leftist/Marxist analysis of Israel. Don't you agree? And since all you did was use soundbites like “apartheid”, “ethnic cleansing”, etc. it's hard to go further in your case. Why apartheid? Why ethnic cleansing?

“Not knowing anything about the constant warmongering, peace-breaking and ethnic cleansing by Isntrael is really going to cloud your view.”

Your just repeating yourself and have a first-year-student fixation on words like “ethnic cleansing”.

“I mention racist policies due to the double standards, that should have been obvious.”

Not obvious at all. You have simply repeated yourself. I disputed you claims of Israeli racism and all you have done is repeat yourself.
Written by a communist & former Maoist activist.

“It is illegal in Israel for a non-jew to conceive a child or marry with a Jew, lest the gene pool be diluted.”

False. Firstly, there is no Jewish 'race', as you yourself have said before. So you have contradicted yourself again. There are Ethiopian Jews, Russian Jews, German Jews, Arabic Jews and so on. Also, most Jews are secular Jews who marry people of all races – both within Israel and outside Israel. Finally, Jewish men and women can marry non-Jews legally. However, in order for a child to be Jewish from a religious perspective, the mother, though not the father, must be Jewish. But this happens in many religions. Many Catholics only marry Catholics. And practicing Christians only tend to marry practicing Christians. Outside the religious, as also with Jews, there is lots of intermarrying.

How important do you think that X's support of Israel is? It is clearly very important to you! X has hardly posted on Israel and its support of that country is largely peripheral, as I see it.

What you have done is shown your own obsession with Israel and projected that onto X (as many of the Nazi commentators on the X website do). X's support of Israel is the same as its support of France, or Germany, etc. So your references to obscure things like the Balfour Declaration are equivalent to talking about France's collaborators with Nazi Germany or being against contemporary Germany because of WW2.

What do you mean by “Zionism” anyway? When was the last war we "fought for Israel"? According to National Socialist/International Socialist theory we have done so; though not in reality. In addition, there are no racist policies in Israel. Or, rather, no more than in any other country. But, of course, as a Israel/Jew-obsessive, you only have eyes for Israel.

If Israelis are “insanely racist”, and Israelis are all Ashkenazi/Khazar Jews, then what is the basis of that racism? You are very muddled. Then again, before the Khazar/Ashkenazi meme went around Nazis/Leftists in the 1970s and after, Nazis/Leftists said the Israelis were racist because they were Semites! You see, as ever, the Jews can never win.

What with this “Isntrael” spelling? You seem to be assuming that X supporters read the same websites as you.

“Israel's war on Islam”? So you're against the war on Islam? Or just Israel's war on Islam? Perhaps Israel is at war with Islam because
Islam is at war with Israel. And, as a supporter of X (if that's not a ruse), you should fully understand Israel's position... but you don't. Instead you use the International Socialist (Leftist) lexicon of “apartheid”, “ethnic cleansing”, etc. - all these terms were literally coined by Leftist academics (Chomsky, and the self-described communists, Ilan Pappe, Shlomo Sand, Sylvan Cypel, etc.). So why are using Leftist theory to analyse Israel?

Again, you say that Zionism is a “Leftist ideology”. Yet your analysis is completely Leftist in nature, with your talk of racism and apartheid. So on one breath you class Israel as “Leftist”, and then you say it is racist, colonialist, etc. - the vocabulary of Leftist theory. That is a direct contradiction.

“Can you please explain the cognitive dissonance between your hatred of Islam (and Palestine) and your love of Judaism (Israel).” - Thomas Edwards

I don't have any “cognitive dissonance”. Jews aren't bombing Europe, creating Jewish ghettos in the north of England, forcing kosher products on non-Jews, forming grooming gangs, etc. And I don't “love” Judaism. I have never once defending Judaism as a religion; though I have defended Israel and Jews. I don't feel any strong need to learn about Judaism; except when National Socialists and International Socialists go into great detail about it.

Israel is not “Judaism”, as you put it. The bias or ignorance here is staggering. Israel is a secular democracy with an extremely small but militant Jewish voice who have a small impact simply because they have a PR system. There are many Arabs in the Knesset and Arabs who run newspapers which call for the destruction of Israel. There are over one million Arab Muslims in Israel itself.

Where are you getting your information from, exactly? And don't ask me the same question because I actually spend more time reading International Socialist/National Socialist views on Israel than pro-Israel stuff.

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